Value of motorhome

How is the value of the individual vehicles calculated on entry to China, for example at that time mine will be four years old, and others may be as old as 10 years. Do we need to bring a valuation from Europe?

9, The value of the individual vehicles is calculated by the custom officials when they check the vehicle information and at border port. They will require the value in your country, but that is only for reference.  The custom officials calculate the value, according the to vehicle brand, produce year, power, weight, etc.
In China, we had teams enter or exit through all most all border port which are open to the third country vehicles. According to our experience, the port Horgas, the Erenhot, Takschen ,. Tianjin, Shanghai, are serious, and the custom calculate the vehicle value seriously and usually they will charge high. But the south Xinjiang border port, Tourgat and Irkstan, this belongs to ethnic minority autonomous area, and the policy there is much better and not as serious as the other port. Moreover, it is by the Kashgar, and many of driving groups would like to enter or exit through those ports. Since we had many teams enter and exit through those two ports, and we had very good relationship with them. So they will not charge a lot for your vehicles if they enter from either of these two ports. If you take the early bird booking and enter from either of these two port (Irkstan or Tourgat), NAVO will help you to pay the deposit, and you need not to pay the deposit. This is also one of the advantages we offer to our guests.

Where do we enter China

I am investigating how we will arrived in China, and what countries we have to pass through and their possible visa implications for our travel. I see that Russia has a border with China close to Altay, however I cannot see if there are any roads crossing that border, quite frankly looks like it is all mountains, but I thought I should ask to make sure, otherwise we would possibly pass through Kazakhstan, again to reduce the number of visas required.

10, There is no border port between Russia and China. If you drive through Russia to China, you have three choices.
a) Russia-Mongolia-China (Erenhot border) which is in the north of China and southeast of Ulaanbaatar..
b) Russia-Kazakhstan-China (Horgas border)
c) Russia-Kazakhstan-Kyrgyzstan-China (no need to pay custom deposit)
There is some other ports between China and Kazakhstan or Mongolia, but some of them are not open to the third country vehicle, such as Takschen (China-Mongolia border) ,near Mongoliaa CHOVD. But this is not open to the third country vehicle. The third country vehicle and guests can only go through after they get the permission from Ulaanbaatar. And some ports are not open all year around, only open half a year, or first half of each month.
For some small port, we suggest not to use, because after you enter, and there was any team who had passed that border port and it is the first time for the local officials to make the self-drive process and it will cost much more time, because they need to ask and learn how to do it.
Because above, we suggest your team entering at the most used port which can make the process quickly and not stop there for process.
First suggest entry port is Irkstan or Tourgat, convenient and low custom deposit. Second suggest entry port is Horgas (this is the largest land border, everyday many trade trucks and sometimes driving groups enter or exit there, so the officials are familiar with the related policy. Although they are serious with all the process and calculate the vehicle value seriously, but they will not learn at spot and knew how to do the process.
I think, compared with the high custom deposit, the Kyrgyzstan visa is not a complicated and expensive things.
The custom collect the custom deposit when the vehicle enters and when the vehicle exit, they will return about one month time, because there is some paperwork and process within the custom.

Others who have Done China

Dave drove his classic MG

I thought I was a MG Tragic! You are seriously a Travel Tragic!  I have just read a little of your travels in your camper van and there is obviously no where you are not able to travel!!! Needless to say, I am green with envy!
 
Regarding the Stans, only Turkmenistan required a government guide so you won't have that worry on this trip, but we found the history and friendship of the guides invaluable for our understanding and enjoying each country we traversed. Also, we required letters of introduction from a travel agent for most of our visa applications... The roads we chose were mainly sealed with pot holes to keep us alert, but good, generally through China and the Stans.
 
88 Days in China on the proposed route would be absolutely fantastic! Some people say the Torugart Pass is impassable for our cars but I don't subscribe to those concerns... In extreme wet periods, maybe, but if old trucks and busses can traverse the pass, so could your camper van and our MGs, with care, of course.
 

Interesting reading China to UK trip in classic MGs.

Max drove his classic Porsche

We're just finishing up on our mini tour of China, its been great fun. NAVO has been awesome right from the very first email I sent to Tracy - Our guide Serena has also been extremely helpful, professional and good fun at every step of the way. We haven't even left China yet and we're already planning a new trip with NAVO for next year!
As Tracy may have already told you, we're touring in a classic 1960's Porsche so road condition was of great concern to us during the planning stages.  Fortunately, 95+% of the "Express Way" roads in China are absolutely first class, better than those in the UK, absolutely perfect.  Stick to the express way roads, you have to pay to use them but its worth the money.

However....whilst the majority of roads are great, some of the more remote sections of road (nearly always the remote mountain areas) haven't yet been upgraded.  The government are still building these sections, you'll be diverted off to the side of the road, usually onto an old rough road with potholes and ruts etc...  But if you take it slow, you should be fine.  Just factor into your planning that you'll be going slow.

Just to be on the safe side I would explore the possibility of raising the suspension on your truck, and also fitting some heavy duty shock absorbers if possible.  Not so much for China, but these will be more important for the Stans.

Regarding the Stans, Turkmenistan roads are terrible but Kazakstan roads are generally pretty good. If you haven't already come across them, I'd highly recommend that you contact David at "Stantours" - They know every corner of the Stans and can arrange everything you'll need. We used them and they're great

www.stantours.com

I purchased all the maps we needed from an excellent company in the UK, they'll have everything you need. Shipping will be a little high to NZ but it shouldn't be too bad

www.stanfords.co.uk

Best of luck with the trip, if you need any extra info just let me know. (We're off into Laos tomorrow so I may be late replying to emails)

Chrissy and Col say...

So allow me to introduce the two of us. I am Chrissy from Australia (chief passenger) and Col from Britain- the impressive half - is none other than our chief driver. Tracy may have mentioned it but Col has an SCI so has driven from London to Laos using hand controls. We are destined for Australia but held up due to mechanical problems.
 
Basically the roads were excellent in Turkey and Iran but as soon as we crossed into Turkmenistan and left Ashgabat to go to Mary and onto the Uzbek border the road was awful. It is completely doable in a 2WD, but the pot holes etc made the 3 hour trip take a day. You will be fine though.

In Uzbek we headed for Bukhara and then Samarkand and Tashkent. Again the roads weren't brilliant but they were passable and all tarmacked. 

We then backtracked and crossed into Kazakhstan (as the uzbek/kyrgyz border was subject to closures) via the Chinaz border post and went to Shymkent and Taraz. Both were fine for a 2WD and in better condition than Uzbek/Turkmen roads.

We crossed into Kyrgyzstan at Taraz and headed to beautiful Talas. This road again was not too bad. We had to climb the Otmok pass to get onto the Bishkek Osh main road. The road was great but some of the bends were tight and it was a very high pass, so we had to stop often to cool down the radiator. Actually the road down to Osh was surprisingly great as it looked brand new.

The difficult road was from Osh to Sary Tash. A lot of it was not sealed and one of the passes was very difficult because the road formed tight hair pin bends and since it had rained it turned the road into a steep muddy track. We nearly didn't make it and it was the most difficult part of the trip.

It may not be suitable for your campervan because your van is so long, that said many trucks climb up and down but they look like they all had 4wd. ( see the map above "Sary Tash".... we do not go this way)

The road your From Sary Tash to Kashgar was not all tarmacked but it was corrugated but you'd be fine. All this advice is current but the Chinese are quickly funding roads into kyrgyzstan, so who knows by the time you get there it may have been built.
 
I don't know much about the road to Khorgas on the border of Kazakhstan but talking to Mongol Rally teams we met, they all agreed that the west of Kazakhstan is a nightmare for driving. We thoroughly recommend Iran as a place to visit just because the people are incredibly friendly and love tourists.

Clive Barker who "did" China in 2002 writes

1    Since you are planning a trip in 2012 be aware that border regulations etc may well change before you get there.  Check it out before you set off.

2    Don't use the Irkestan pass into China.  The roads on the Chinese side are good.  The roads on the Kyrgyzstan side are not suitable for motor homes.

3    The entry to through the Torugut pass should be ok.  When we went through here in 2003 the road was unmade but I believe it is now tarmac on the Chinese side.  The road on the Kyrgyzstan side is mostly piste.  You need to allow 4 days from Bishkek to the actual border although you can do it 3.  The various border posts are spread over 200 kms so on the day you enter China you will need to start very early to get through all the Kyrgy border posts and drive the distance to China before you get to deal with the Chinese border admin.

4    I agree with the agency's remarks about the day of arrival.  Thursday or Friday is best.  Friday can be busy though with many people going home for the weekend.  Entering on one of these days you will be well placed to visit the Sunday market.  The vehicle documentation is at a town about 45 kms from Kashgar towards Kuqu and this could be done on the Friday or the Monday.

5    The route is very comprehensive although I haven't been to a number of the places listed.  However many of the best sites are included.  I would suggest one or two further ideas
      a    day 49 - I would really recommend taking the boat trip
      b    day 61 - I would also recommend visiting the Silk Museum to see the double sided embroidery - its amazing.

6    The total distance in China is 20524 kms in 87 days plus one for getting through the border.  This gives a daily average driving distance of 236 kms per day including rest days.  This includes 13 non driving days of which 4 are spare so the actual daily average distance per driving day is 277kms per day.  This is very very high and will be exhausting to achieve every day over a period of 3 months.  Don't forget you will need time for shopping, maintenance and repairs, getting fuel and water, and many other ordinary activities besides sightseeing, stopping for photos etc.  When we went to China the first time we averaged only 135 kms per day and this was hard work.  Generally I have found around 110  - 120 kms per day is comfortable.  In my opinion you need to shorten the route to about 10 -11000 kms.

7    Date of entry.  This will depend on your route to and from China.  This needs to be carefully considered before selecting the start date.   I would suggest you prepare a weather plan to help make this decision.  I have attached my weather plan for our outward trip as an example. The green outlines are our intended transit dates. In addition to this you need to take account of any mountain areas to cross.  For example crossing the Eastern Turkish mountain ranges is difficult from end of December to March due to low temperatures,snow and avalanches.  Some mountain passes may be closed.

8    You also need to check out the situation regarding vehicle documentation for entering China.  Since 2008 the Chinese do not accept letters of guarantee such as the Carnet de Passage.  The requirement is for the deposit of a cash payment of a percentage of the value of the vehicle.  This can be 100% of the value or more.  The deposit has to be in Chinese currency.  The value of the vehicle is assessed by customs at the border.  Some agencies will arrange for the deposit to be made in advance with funds you remit to them. If this is less than the amount assessed by the customs at the border a cash payment of the balance must be paid at the time.  Repayment of the cash deposit on leaving the country can take 30 - 90 days. 
An option offered by some agencies is to arrange a bank loan to cover the customs deposit.  This costs about 0.8% per month. 
Another option offered by a few agencies is that they will provide a deposit guarantee themselves.  There is often a limit on the amount which may be less than the amount demanded by customs.  You may be able to find an agency which will provide an unlimited deposit guarantee.

9    Costs vary between agencies so get a number of quotations on a like for like basis.  The cheapest quote we received was 50% less than the most expensive.

10  You need to consider where you will obtain visas on exit from China for Kazakstan.  You can get one in Urumqi so you will need to build in time in your tour to get these bearing in mind the Consulate opening hours and time taken to issue them (eg it might take 4 days over a weekend)

Clive says...... One or two thoughts on your notes.

Ignoring the issues of weather when you are intending to set off I would suggest you aim to get to Kyrgyzstan with plenty of time to spare as the China entry dates are not very flexible. This will allow for breakdowns etc.  If you arrive early you could do a trip to Lake Issyk Kul or indeed around it. 

I agree your remarks about the number of motorhomes.  It will be particularly difficult in the cultivated areas of China where there is virtually no parking space.  It also seems that camping overnight in fuel stations is not permitted.  The guide may know places but don't have any high expectations of what they will do. They are there mainly to be your minder and report back to the authorities on what you do.

I didn't mention in my last email that the guide will be expected to travel in your vehicle with you.  Having his ownvehicle is very expensive as you will have to pay for a driver and all his expenses as well as those of the vehicle.

Roads in Kazahkstan aren't at all that good.  You may only be able to average 30kms /hr.  The road from Astana to Kyrgyzstan is being rebuilt which may mean extensive dirt road deviations.  I think it is due to be finished in 2015 but my info is sketchy.  We will be travelling this road in 2011 so can let you know in due course.

If you are visiting Samarkand I would highly recommend going a bit further to visit Bukhara - one of my favourite places.

.

Check out a beautiful pass through the mtns. Tourgat pass.

2, If you enter China from Kyrgyzstan border port (either Tourgat or Irkstan), there is custom deposit. Since we had a lot of teams entering from there, and we have a very good relationship with the border custom and they will collect a very low cost for the custom deposit, less than 50000RMB for each vehicle. So it is less than 200,000RMB for 4 vehicles, and we can pay that for you. But if the custom deposit is a large amount of money, it is hard for NAVO to pay for you, because we have over 30 teams every year, we need to prepare and think about for all of our guests. We appreciate your understanding at this aspect.

The Guide

If you need the support vehicle, the guide will camp with the driver by your MH. And every 3-5 days, please send them to a hotel to have a shower and good rest. If you don’t need support vehicle, (since it will drive such a long tour and make the cost higher, I don’t know whether you will need this.) the guide will be alone in the night. It is not very safe for one guide alone to camp outside for long days. If there are two people (driver and guides), if there is any problem, they can help each other. But if there is only one guide alone, it is not very safe. For any tour, we treat both the guests and our guide’s safety the most most important thing. That’s why I mention two, one is camp by the MH, the other is stay in the MH.

Moreover, if you use two guides, and when the team separate, maybe one guide will lead some vehicles alone. During that period, the guide may sleep in his or her sleeping bag in your MHs, or stay in a small hostel or hostel.

I mention to stay in your vehicle, because if so, you may not need to pay for the guide’s hotel cost. If you mind, he or she may stay in a small hotel, and the team need to pay for the hostel cost.

And you can choose a male guide or a female guide. We have many guides in NAVO, and some of them are very good, some are just common. We have both male and female guides to lead driving tours and you can tell me whether you have requirement for the guide’s gender, I will try to meet your need.

For this kind of tour, you camp everyday and cook your meal everyday. Most of the time, you will not camp in the village or city area, but outside. It is very difficult for our guide to have meals. They can eat bread or noodles sometimes, but can not everyday for a 3 month tour.

If you need support vehicle, we can bring stoves and let the guide and driver cook by themselves. If there is no support vehicle, the guide can not cook food by herself or himself, because it is hard for him or her to carry all cooking equipment, stoves, wok etc. He or she can only eat with the guests. Maybe he or she can help some of you to do some cooking. And he or she may introduce the China cuisine culture to the group and cook some Chinese dishes for the group. I think we may discuss this with the team.

Yes, the support car cost is 109000RMB for both the car and the driver and all the cost of the car, such as the petrol, toll fee, parking, driver’s salary etc.But the car is a common car, not a 4WD.

The guide can sleep on the floor of the MH with his or her own sleeping bag, if the group need. We only need to guarantee that the guide’s safety in the night during camping.

If you feel the support vehicle cost too high, I suggest you using two guides. So two guides may camp together in the tent by your MHs and they can help each other in the night, if there is something happen.

And if the group divided into two for some small part, the two guides may lead two group for short time. One guide’s cost is much lower than the support vehicle. But also the support vehicle has its function. This depends on your choice.

 For every night, I just list out the town or city or area you will stay, so the guide can find a small hostel or local family to stay. It is not easy, but I think for most nights, the guide can find the small hotel, if you don’t stay in the very wild, but near a village or a town. The extra cost for the hotel for the guide each night will be about 100 to 150. I think for small place, 100 will be ok.

Lenght of the tour

Our Guide Coy NAVO comment

I have checked your itinerary, yes, total 20524 kms in 87 days + one day for getting through the border. 11 non driving days and 4 spare days among the 88 days.
Yes, your friend’s note is true. In the practical tour, it is indeed that the group needs time for some daily needs, such as shopping and maintenance.

Firstly, I would like to show you as many famous and beautiful things in China as possible, and I really want my guests see the most amazing places; it is very hard to cut some of them (because it will be a little pity, if we miss). Secondly, this depends on the style of the group. Some want relax style, drive 1-2 hours each day, some want to drive more, half day driving. Thirdly, since you are a 4 vehicles group and I choose most of the road in good condition and expressway to avoid the traffic jam or slow driving, although there must be some, but I try to make them less. Forthly, I also need to consider the money aspect for my guests. I wish they could enjoy a highest price performance. If they visit a little, maybe it is not economical for them, so I try to make the tour full within limited time and not very tired itinerary.

After this, for your tour, on good road, I estimate the average speed is about 70-80kms/hour. If there is visit on that day, you will drive about 2-4 hours (mostly 2-3 hours) and then the rest time is for visit and shopping and maintenance. If there is a few visit days (about 25 days), we will drive 5-6 hours each day and rest time for shopping and maintenance. This makes the tour full for two thirds days, and relaxes for one third days. It is also indeed that sometimes, our estimate time is right, sometimes, it is not right, because the unexpected things, such as waiting, adding petrol, stop for something etc.
 
As I listed that our quote doesn’t include the entrance fee, because we leave this flexibility to our guests. You can decide to visit or not. I list the most famous and interesting things there, but not all of you will have the same feeling and may give up some sites and spend more time at some other places. This also happened in our practical tours a lot. So this itinerary is for reference, not a totally fixed one. Because driving tour is flexible. No one knows when the vehicle will conk out on the way or what will happen during the tour. That’s why we leave 4 spare days for any in case.

If we make the tour only 100-120kms a day, that means drive 1-2 hours of each day (because most are good roads and expressway) and leave a lot of time for visit and shopping and maintenance. This is no problem, but if we drive only 10000-11000kms in China, that is only one third or half China, and we may miss a lot of interesting things.

Let’s decide this according to your feeling, because our aim is to make the group enjoy the tour as much as possible. If you want to drive 1-3 hours each day, and visit 2-5 hours and spend another 1-3 hours for shopping and maintenance every day, I am very glad to adjust the itinerary to shorter and make the average driving distance below 120kms. If you would like to drive 2-4 hours each day, and visit 2-4 hours and spend another 1-2 hours for shopping and maintenance everyday, I will adjust the itinerary to shorter and make the average driving distance to about 200kms.

Or we can make two itineraries, one is for practical use, another is for permits application. Because the group need to drive within the permitted route, and we make the permit route including more areas and make a practical use one which is shorter than the permit one. So during the tour, you can do the relax one, if you think you have more time and would like to do more visits, you can add some places in your tour during the tour. How do you think about this way? 

I think this tour should be once a lifetime tour for you, and should be a memorable one for all of you. I would like to try my best to make them really proper for you. And if you find any other aspect that is not proper or not suitable or have the note or suggestion from other friends who had experience, please feel free to discuss with me and let’s make the tour the best for you.

I for one would like to go for the full tour and cut it short in a couple of places if we have to

And for your mail last week, you asked some questions. Please see my answers to your questions about your guide.

1, the number of the guides depends on whether you will use a support vehicle. If you don’t want a support vehicle, we will send two guide for you. If you use the support vehicle, we will send one guide and one driver for you. And at each visit site where need a lot of cultural and background information introduction, we will hire a local guide to introduce, to make sure that you have detailed introduction about the sites. If there is no English local guide at some small places, our guide will translate.
China is very big, you know, almost the whole size of Europe, it is hard to find one guide who know all places well. So it is hard to guarantee that one guide can know all things during the tour. Our guide will do the main introduction of each province, each place and each visit site and the China culture aspect, but we will still hire a local guide to do detailed introduction of each site with culture background. If it is natural sites for seeing, there will be no local guide.

2, If you use support vehicle, the guide will sit on the support vehicle and lead the way in front of the group, using two-way radio to keep contact with every vehicle. If you don’t use the support vehicle, the two guides will sit in your vehicles.

3,This depends on where you will stay for each night. If you stay in village or near city, we will let the guide stay in the local family or guesthouse. If you stay in the wild, and if there is support vehicle, the guide and the driver will sleep in the vehicle. If there is no support vehicle, you need to make two small spaces for our guide to sleep in your vehicle. They could bring their own sleeping bag an mat. But if you stay in wild in the MH, it will be a little dangerous for the guide to stay in the tent in the wild. If something happen; there is no any protection for them, and the tent can protect few things. We need to guarantee both you and the guide’s safety, which is the base for a joyful tour. When the itinerary fixed and you decided whether you will use a support vehicle, I will make this aspect in details.

I would suggest we have the guide in a support vehicle

4, For your group, I will choose one or two of very good guides in NAVO who had no complaint from his or her past guests in NAVO working time. And all guests are satisfied with him or her.
When I choose guide for my guests, firstly I require them must having the enthusiastic to serve the guests and try their best to make the guests enjoy the tour as much as possible. Secondly, they must be patient, responsible, humorous and has experience and ability to solve problems when things happen. Thirdly, I will choose one who can learn the route carefully and work hard one. 
When I decide the guide, I will give you his or her photo and some feedback from the past guests. Most of our guides were in English major, and till now, I haven’t met any guests who complain of my guide’s English, no matter where the guests are from, Swiss, UK, Australia, New Zealand, Portugal, America, Belgium etc.

5, About the guide’s knowledge, to be frank, the guide can not know all things well. China is very big, and usually the guide only led group within their own province and they only know their province well. For example, the Sichuan guide only know Sichuan well, and the Beijing guide only know Beijing well and only has some knowledge about other places. It is very hard to find one guide who know all places well, although they may visit many places for one time or two or three times. So that’s why it is difficult to find a driving tour guide who knows all well. If he or she really know all things well, he or she must be an expert and don’t want to lead groups go outside all year around and it is too tired for them. It is also hard for tour agent to find a person like that.

Moreover, the driving tour is flexible tour, and most of the teams, the route is different, so it is hard to find one guide who know all. All itinerary is based on the guests’ plan, not fixed. All our guides are specialized driving tour groups, and they led driving tour teams for NAVO, and they have been to most of the places in your route ( not all, difficult to guarantee, for example, we had a team this year, who visited all World Natural and Cultural Heritage sites in China, it is hard for a guide to visit all sites, but only visit some sites. But no matter the guide know this place well or not, he or she has a strong desire to serve the guests well and he or she will not influence the tour, even she or he has not been to. They will do a lot of study and preparation in advance. I choose the guide, at least two month before the tour. I will give the plan and the itinerary to the guide, meanwhile I will give him or her a list of information they need to prepare and they must know. They will go back home to study and prepare for the first month. Then they will go back to me and I will check. If they have any question, I will answer them. After checking, I will tell them what they need to study more and what they still don’t know and then they will go back to prepare in the second month. And about 10 days before the entry, I will ask them to my office and give them the whole program and all the process preparation and repeat the whole process with them and make sure they know every process and step well. For the guide who led my groups over 1-2 years, this will be much better, because they have know some or many places, although not all.

We had about 10 guides who lead NAVO’s driving teams. And some are very good and never get any complaint and all feedback “Excellent”, and some just so so (because it is not easy to find guides who had been to a lot of places and had driving tour experience). When my guests confirm the tour, I will choose the guide for them. I always choose the proper guide for my teams, not 100%, but 90%.

Although our guide don’t know all places well, but they will give you the main introduction for each province, for each visit sites, for the China culture, folks, etc. If you have any question, our guide will do his or her best to answer you and if they don’t know, they will ask me or ask the local people and then answer you.

Ok, hope the above are clear and welcome any questions